INTERVIEW: My interview with Caveman from the FOOTSCRAY NOT WESTERN BULLDOGS (FNWB) lobby group, by Jack Frost, 4 November 2012

The famous Western Oval in Barkly Street, Footscray, Melbourne

Jack Frost: Dear Caveman 

Thank you very much for agreeing to do an interview with me for the WAFL GOLDEN ERA website. I'm a football traditionalist who deplores the spread of hyper-capitalist logic and practices (as well as political correctness) into all codes of football over the past 20-30 years. I believe we have much in common! Here are the questions:

Authoritarian sign at Western Oval

Jack Frost Question 1: Before we move on to discuss FNWB can you tell us more about your personal background such as how and when you became a Footscray supporter?

Caveman: My reason for following Footscray is due to family members (especially my father and his siblings) being supporters of the club. I was born in Footscray and lived within walking distance (though admittedly a reasonably long walk) from the then named Western Oval. Our family moved away from Footscray before my 4th birthday, moving across the great divide of the river (the Maribyrnong River that is!). So although I was no longer living in Footscray, we weren’t that far away from there. I went with my father and his relatives to three games in 1975, but it was in 1976 that I began to fully understand the game and from that year I became a devoted fan of ‘Aussie Rules’. The next year (1977) was when I began to regularly attend games and this was to continue on for many years. The family thing was all from my father’s side; my mother didn’t come from Melbourne. The football team that my mother’s family had a connection to was Cananore. Guess what Cananore did during the 1940s - they CHANGED THEIR NAME! So if you know about the Cananore Football Club, then you will know what part of Australia my mother came from. So Footscray was the team that my father, his siblings, my cousins and most of my father’s mates followed. I decided at the age of 6 to NOT be a rebel and thus this decision of being loyal to family tradition has rewarded me with 37 odd years of supporting a club which has participated in NO Grand Finals!

So I follow Footscray for heritage and the (initial) residential allegiance. My father's two sisters who are both in their 80s still live in West Footscray, they went to the Hyde Street State School back in the 1930s and early 1940s. This is the school from [from which] the much remembered ‘Hyde Street Band’ [came from]. [They] would play before the game and at half time during home matches at Footscray. The family moved before my father could go there, so he went to the Geelong Road State School (now known as the Footscray Primary School) If Footscray’s nickname was something other than what it is i.e. the cats, hawks, demons, magpies, blues, power, etc I would still have followed them, the nickname ‘bulldogs’ had nothing to do with it. So when people ask me who I follow I always tell them - FOOTSCRAY. I never answer that question with the nickname ‘Bulldogs.’ I would hope that rival fans would answer that question in the same way - i.e. someone would answer with GEELONG or RICHMOND rather than ‘The Cats’ or ‘The Tigers’. 

JF2: Please briefly introduce for our readers the history and goals of FNWB.

Caveman: FNWB had four tasks - the top one is the main one though the others are connected to it. One of those (b) has been 90% achieved as explained below:

(a) Footscray name to return in whole for the club. To cut a long story short there is to be no amalgamated name like Footscray/Western Bulldogs- just Footscray as it was at Round 22 1996. This is not negotiable. Footscray and nothing else.

(b) Dispense with the ‘Yawning Cat’ uniform in favour for the pre 1975 jumper. This is the banded guernsey. This task has been achieved. Nevertheless the jumper is not completely correct as we want it. The 2012 onwards jumper requires a red collar and also for size of the red and white bands to be increased for it to be a proper Footscray jumper. However what it is now is certainly a marked improvement. So we can now campaign to just tinker with the uniform rather than prior to 2012 where we were fighting to overhaul it completely!

(c) The history of the Footscray Football Club must be recognised from our earliest days and not just from 1925. This was the year that Footscray moved competitions from the Victorian Football Association (VFA) to the Victorian Football League (VFL) The reason for this is to show the world that the Footscray Football Club did not just appear in 1925 out of nothing. We had been around since 1883 (possibly earlier- the original founding date is far from certain). Not only had the club been around for many years it had also been a very successful club. Nine senior premierships were won between 1898-1924. Next season will be 100 years since the 1913 Premiership. Hardly anyone is seemingly aware of this!
 

(d) This [next] task has never been aggressively lobbied for on FNWB - but this is still a longed for ambition. That is for a brand new exclusive home ground for the Footscray Football Club. We need a new stadium from where we would play our entire home games there, not just home used as a training base. This will be the hardest of all FNWB’s tasks to achieve. We just cannot continue with our present HOME game arrangements, it is financially crippling as well as depriving us of what we previously had- a decided home ground advantage. It is surely not a coincidence that Geelong’s three recent Premierships are connected to having a bona fide home ground.

JF3: I'm aware of your website and Facebook page. Is that all there is to FNWB or do you have campaigns and actions in the so-called "real world" as well?

Caveman: The FNWB website is not a major player in the crusading world, though for the message to get out there it really needs to increase input and publicity (for the cause though not for the actual site). The designated FNWB Facebook page was NOT created by FNWB. There have been a few different Facebook groups arguing for the Footscray name, some are no longer around and others have sprung up. The FNWB website would need to become more ebullient to tap into areas that may not know that it exists. 

JF4: How successful have you been in your relationships and networking with (a) FFC fans and (b) the FFC management?

Caveman: FNWB has some keen devotees who keep in regular contact, though FNWB is not an organised resistance or pressure group (well NOT YET anyway.)
 



Western Oval from Barkly St end

FNWB’s direct relationship with the club could be considered neither positive nor negative. The Western Bulldogs knows that FNWB exists, but there is certainly no direct “hotline” like relationship. FNWB rarely attacks the club over performances on the field. We never contact the club to complain about players, coaches’ etc - the Caveman personally doesn’t feel comfortable ‘bagging’ employees at the club, whether they are admin staff or players on the park. We never ring or email the club. The Caveman is a WB member (additionally as a social club one too) though in the first 7 years of the Western Bulldogs (1997-2003) I purposefully refused to be a member of the club.

So perhaps the club respects us for this - though I couldn’t tell you really if that is how they think. When FNWB is ‘venting the spleen’ it is directed at those who continue to deny the Footscray name. We realise that we can’t do much about performances on the ground, but we will fight 100% for the re-introduction of the Footscray name.

JF5: Are there realistic possibilities of a name change back to Footscray and/or a move back to the Western Oval for some or all home games? Can you give us an estimate of the % probability that these two events will happen? Which event is more likely?

Caveman: Yes -I believe that the Footscray name will return. This is coming from a committed pessimist! The issue is gaining additional publicity in social [media] and also the mainstream media. More people are questioning the supposed benefits of the name change. There is less likely to be any group fully committed and organised in fighting for maintaining the ‘Western Bulldogs’ name. The arguments used to resist changing the name back to Footscray have always been negative ones - the trashing of Footscray as a suburb/name etc. No one knows what Western is supposed to represent, the club always markets itself as The Bulldogs this and Bulldogs that- Western is really a pointless exercise.

This is more likely to happen than home games at the Western Oval. I would consider changing the name back to Footscray an 85% chance, yet the probability for some home games for Premiership points to be played at the Western Oval, I consider a 0% chance. The reason for this is that the result of the much heralded upgrade to the training facilities meant the encroachment into the areas which would hold spectators. The capacity of the ground has been decimated; the ground could not hold 10,000 people anymore. This is my reason for a new stadium to be built for the Footscray Football Club.

I cannot see the club surviving as Western Bulldogs in the long term. All that is required is for a change at the top of the AFL and should a more ‘pay your own way’ ideology come to power, then I believe that the club will be either merged or relocated out of Victoria. Now this could happen under Footscray. However if the new President Peter Gordon continues on for some time and refuses to change the name back many fans will not tip into their pockets again should the AFL decide to merge/ relocate us. 

JF6: What do you think of the FFC letters on the back of the current WBFC jersey? Is this a good move or just, to quote St Matthew from the Bible, "killing the prophets and then building their tombs"?

Caveman: I personally find having those three letters up there insulting, so definitely closer to St Matthew’s quote. The FFC acronym could mean all forms of crude or vulgar meanings to further trivialise or demean our 100 year old history. If they had to have it there they could have found room for 6 extra letters to make the 9 letter word FOOTSCRAY. It doesn’t make me feel any [more] closely connected to the club. If it is a ‘sorry but’ exercise then I am still not won over. 

JF7: Has FNWB got any formal or informal associations with other traditionalists groups in any code? As mentioned, Pave Jusup and Kova of the MCF supporter group at Melbourne Knights Soccer Club in Sunshine North support Footscray in the AFL and are aware of your campaign.

Caveman: FNWB has a very good rapport with the main player involved with the campaign to reinstate the genuine name, to another one of the clubs nicknamed ‘bulldogs’ in Australia [Canterbury-Bankstown in the NRL]. I have read many items about this situation north of the Murray River with Canterbury and it really is a parallel universe as to what went in on Sydney and here in Melbourne with both of us ‘bulldogs’ clubs. It is an interesting paradox that two keen fans from different clubs and codes with teams nicknamed bulldogs have an alliance, due to both wanting to ‘turn back’ from the influence of the ‘bulldogs’ nickname.

I don’t have a connection with the MCF supporter group, though it wouldn’t hurt to get involved with like minded people. 

JF8: What is your opinion on the Foxtel Cup?

Caveman: Unfortunately I haven’t followed it, for the reason connected to question 9 directly below.
 
JF9: What is your opinion of the current VFL?

Caveman: I can’t take it seriously, some old traditional VFA Clubs fighting on their own competing with both the seconds of Victorian AFL clubs and some old VFA clubs made up from the seconds of Victorian AFL clubs. It is too supercilious for me to follow.
 

I yearn for the old days of my team's reserves playing the curtain raiser against our opponent's seconds. It was fair as you were watching blokes all striving to play well enough to step up to the seniors next week. It also gave people a reason to turn up early and it would prevent the mad crowd rush into the ground 15 minutes before the first bounce. So teams with compromised line ups just don’t hold my interest. 

JF10: In my blog I call the old Barkly Street ground "Western Oval". Do you prefer this name or the "Whitten Oval" name (and give your reasons)?

Caveman: That is a hard one as I personally dislike both terms - but for different reasons.

Firstly I never liked the name Western Oval - though I never thought about it much. Anyhow when I did I always believed it was bland and uninteresting. However I was never sufficiently interested to actively campaign against it. To me ‘Such and Such Oval’ is like a private in the army - the lowest ranking, you have ‘Field Marshals’ and ‘Majors’ etc down to ‘Privates’ at the bottom. Similar here ‘Stadium’ down to ‘Park’ and ‘Oval’ is the ‘Private’.

Footscray FC support, Barkly St, Footscra

As for changing it - I didn’t agree with it being Whitten Oval- so for the reasons above I would have preferred Whitten Park.

However although I was happy that it was no longer the Western Oval, I didn’t support changing the name of the ground to a former player. Teddy Whitten is probably the best player that the club has had - yet the club had been around since 1883. Teddy Whitten was born in 1933, so the club had been in existence for 50 years before he was born. Teddy had a long continuous connection with the Footscray Football Club from 1951-1971. Yet from Round 22 1971 to his death in August 1995, he was not regularly involved with the club. That is not a criticism of Teddy, there is no reason why he would had to have been there in those last 25 years of his life. Nevertheless there was already the Ted Whitten Stand, so it seemed rather ridiculous having a E.J. Whitten Stand at the Whitten Oval. They should have changed the name of the E. J. Whitten Stand to something else. My main annoyance was that the board at the time (led at the time by the now returning President Peter Gordon) made this decision to change the name of the ground without consulting anyone (a similar scenario to David Smorgon changing the Footscray name to Western Bulldogs). I certainly don’t support arbitrary decisions by a small elite at Footscray! Again like the name change - there was no vote of members on the issue of changing the name of the ground.

JF11: Can you name for me the best Footscray players you have ever watched play.

Caveman: Kelvin Templeton is the best player I have seen, Doug Hawkins second, with Brian Royal and Chris Grant the next in line. That verdict may surprise some, but Templeton was a genius, his career cut short due to the effects of a horrific knee injury in a pre-season night game in 1981. He did play again but he was never the same dominant target man. Templeton ranks so highly for his sheer ability to take pack marks (as well as chest marks of course) and he was usually a very accurate kick. Doug Hawkins is probably the most under rated footballer of all time, his awareness was perfect, and his disposal and ability to read the play was second to none. He was a champion in 1978, yet non-Footscray people only learned this in the 1985 finals series. Brian Royal was full of courage, a rover that regularly kicked goals, he was excellent with both feet, he often kicked important goals in close games near the end. Chris Grant is a champion, but [I] would go for Templeton ahead of him for the reasons that Templeton kicked more bags of goals and was a stronger mark. Templeton regularly kicked 8’s and 9’s as well as the 15 of course in 1978; Chris Grant wasn’t as prolific in that regard, though he did play many games in the backline.

Other players that made me feel proud were Scott West, Andrew Purser, Simon Beasley, plus some that were only there for a small amount of time- like Les Bamblett, [and] Brad Hardie. I only caught the tail end of Laurie Sandilands, Bernie Quinlan and Gary Dempsey. From the late 1970’s and early 1980’s Stevie Power, Geoff Jennings and Ian Dunstan were also well loved.

We did well with the ‘secessionists’ that made their way to Footscray - Andrew Purser, Jimmy Sewell, Brad Hardie, Bruce Duperouzel, Tony Buhagiar and Daniel Southern. [JF comment: It's great to see so many Western Australian players listed here among the all-time Footscray greats.] We had some very good ‘free settlers’ as footballers Ray Huppatz, Neil Sachse, John Riley, Tony McGuinness plus the latter day ‘Western’ blokes. We all know what happened with Neil Sachse, John Riley was possibly one of the smartest blokes to play senior footy- he had one game the opening round of 1984, but returned home to play his footy as well as his job as a Nuclear Physicist in Adelaide. 

JF12: Have you had a chance to read much of the WAFL GOLDEN ERA  website? If so please give your comments and suggestions.

Caveman: It is a ripper - I have never liked the attitude of the (old) VFL of ‘We are the be all and end all’. Way too arrogant, plus there is the killing of the goose that laid the golden egg.
 

From a ‘political’ viewpoint, South Australians, Tasmanians, Victorians and Western Australians should be all mates - our race horses run anti-clockwise unlike the other two who play that different game. The VFL has had this attitude of swallowing up or attempting to devour ‘friendly’ competitions - the VFA, WAFL, SANFL. When I see West Coast and Adelaide Crows fans at games in Melbourne on a Saturday afternoon, I feel like telling them that they should be home watching their real team in action i.e. Subiaco, Claremont, Glenelg, Norwood etc.

I would like to see all West Coast and Fremantle home games to be played on a Friday night and Adelaide games to be played on a Sunday, so these four clubs can see their fans actually spend their Saturday afternoons doing what their Great- Grandfathers did - that being watch their ‘traditional teams’ on that Saturday afternoon. 

JF: Thank you very much for your time and we wish you the very best for your campaign.